Craig rolls through the Minor League acquisitions that the Pirates have made this off-season, provides the reason every team adds to their depth and discusses the International signings that were made as the current period expired.
Craig Toth covers the Pirates for Inside The Bucs Basement, and is a huge Pittsburgh Pirates Baseball Fan; especially when it comes to the Farm System. Listen. Subscribe. Share. We are “For Fans, By Fans & All Pirates Talk.” THE Pirates Fan Minor League Podcast found EVERYWHERE podcasts can be found and always at BucsInTheBasement.com!
It has been an open secret that Andrew Stefan McCutchen would be returning to Pittsburgh for the 2024 season, potentially his last before riding off into the sunset for retirement (or maybe not). News officially dropped yesterday that Cutch was returning on a 1-year, $5 million deal and, after a year in which the 2013 NL MVP posted a .256/.378/.398 triple slash and a wRC+ of 115, it looks like having the hometown hero back is something both fans and the front office can be excited to see. That said, coming off a season where Cutch spent a total of 64.2 innings as a position player and the rest as a designated hitter, what will his role be entering his 16th season in the MLB?
McCutchen saw his triumphant return to Pittsburgh end abruptly after a partially torn achilles on September 4th cut his season short. He did post some VERY strong numbers, however, in his age-36 season. His on-base percentage was his highest since 2015 (.401) and posted his 2nd best BB/K rate (0.75) since 2013. He also reached career milestones with 2,000 hits, 400 doubles and 1,000 walks – falling just short of the 300 home run mark.
On the other hand, he was limited defensively due to right elbow inflammation early in the season which led to him playing 98 of his 106 games this past season as the DH. This may have resulted in a drop in power as his Isolated Power of .141 was the lowest of his career. His slugging percentage was the 2nd lowest number he’s posted after a .384 mark in 2022.
The Pirates are no stranger to a DH with high on-base skills but limited power numbers. They trotted out Daniel Vogelbach for 75 games in 2022 to net almost double the amount of walks (40) as extra base hits (23) while with the team.
Cutch’s contributions to the team go beyond value provided on the field: He has been a part of playoff runs while with the Pirates, Yankees, Phillies and Brewers. He has also endured through part of the Pirates 20-year-long playoff drought, including the 2010 season where the team went 57-105, their worst full-season record since 1954.
He has seen a lot over his time in baseball, now stretching over 18 years of professional ball. He can advise players on how to conduct themselves with media, how to overcome a slump and keep things light in the clubhouse – lest we forget Uncle Larry. He can provide guidance for a young roster in need of it as they push this team into contention.
But Cutch isn’t here as a prop. Per Pirates GM Ben Cherington, “[Cutch] doesn’t want to be a Pirate because he wants to be a hood ornament. He wants to be a Pirate to help us win games.” Cutch is in it to win it. He’s shown that fire on the field, in the clubhouse and on social media.
If he’s healthy enough to play in the field, expect to see him get reps in right field. If he’s not, he will slot in as DH a few times a week. He is still an above average hitter and can provide value in innumerable ways. How he fits into this team’s plans for the foreseeable future we will have to wait and see. But I, for one, am excited to have Cutch return ahead of PiratesFest.
More Andrew McCutchen: "I may not be 2012 or ’13 Andrew McCutchen. But I can be a hybrid of what I was last year and be consistent and better than I was. That’s what I’m working on now."
The Pirates have sent fans into the spiral with the moves they have made in the last week or so. Craig and Chris try to explain what the team is doing, before coming to the conclusion that they have pretty much done the exact same thing they did last off-season; except for acquiring a second first baseman in the form of Carlos Santana.
Brought to you by ShopYinzz.com! Craig Toth covers the Pirates for Inside The Bucs Basement, and joins his buddy Chris at a 9-foot homemade oak bar to talk Pittsburgh Pirates Baseball. Listen. Subscribe. Share. We are “For Fans, By Fans & All Pirates Talk.” THE Pirates Fan Podcast found EVERYWHERE podcasts can be found and always at BucsInTheBasement.com!
12-19-23 – By Michael Castrignano – @412DoublePlay on Twitter
Pirates added another piece to their rotation as they signed southpaw Martín Pérez to a 1-year, $8M contract pending physical. After spending most of his career with the Texas Rangers over two separate stints, Pérez will look to rebound from a mediocre 2023 season after an All-Star year in 2022.
Pérez initially signed with the Rangers as an undrafted free agent in 2007, working his way through the minors before his debut on June 26, 2012. He would only pitch 38 innings in 2012 but was a full-time starter in 2012 for the Rangers, tallying 124.1 innings over 20 starts and posting a 3.62 ERA with a 10-6 record and finishing 6th in Rookie of the Year voting in the American League.
The next few seasons didn’t go as well for Pérez as his 2014 season was cut short after inflammation in his pitching elbow led to Tommy John surgery to repair a partially torn UCL, ending his 2014 and delaying his start to the 2015 season. Over those two years, he combined for just 130 innings with a 4.43 ERA and 83 strikeouts to 43 walks in that stretch.
Pérez bounced back with back to back seasons of 32+ starts, 185+ innings pitched and a WAR of 2.3 and 2.2, respectively. He would deal with discomfort in his right elbow during the 2018 season, leading to another year with less than 100 innings pitched before heading north to sign with the Minnesota Twins on a 1-year, $4M contract. He delivered with a 10-7 record over 32 games (29 starts), 165.1 innings and a 1.9 WAR.
He would spend 2020 and 2021 with the Boston Red Sox, totaling a 10-13 record, 4.65 ERA over 176 innings while posting a 102 ERA+ in that span before rejoining the Rangers.
Pérez posted a career-best turn in 2022, finishing with a 12-8 record, 2.89 ERA, 1.26 WHIP, 196.1 innings pitched and 169 strikeouts. After accepting a qualifying offer for $19.65M to return for a 1-year deal in 2023, he tossed 141.2 innings split between starting and relief work, posting a 4.45 ERA and a 1.41 WHIP.
While he wasn’t a big part of the Rangers postseason roster (working just 4.2 innings of relief in that playoff run), Pérez comes to Pittsburgh fresh off a World Series parade and with 12 years of big league experience to share with a very young roster.
His arsenal works primarily off of a low-90s sinker, which has helped generate a 49.1% career groundball rate for Pérez. Pairing that with low-90s cutter and a mid-80s changeup, Pérez mixes speeds and location to keep opponents off balance.
He is a prototypical soft-tossing southpaw, with a career strikeout rate of 16% and walk rate of 8.3%. Despite this, he typically gives up soft contact when he is able to work low in the zone and force mistakes by hitters. Even when he does allow hard contact – like when he surrendered 21 home runs in 2023 – these numbers will most likely benefit from friendly terrains of PNC Park, which would have held 5 of those longballs in the yard.
Look, there will be fans who get mad at any and every transaction the Pirates make this offseason, big or small, but adding a veteran with the experience and pedigree of Pérez for a below market value deal will likely lead this to being a solid signing in the long run.
Well, we’re just about to Christmas. Exactly one week from now we’ll be opening gifts, and many of those gifts will be Pittsburgh Sports gear, the way 2023 has gone for most of our teams, here’s hoping people kept the receipts.
Oh, and yes, there will be a Five Thoughts on Christmas Day. I’ve never missed one of these, and I don’t see any reason I can’t sit down and tap something out while I watch It’s a Wonderful Life. Hell, maybe I’ll even be inspired by hopefulness and get crazy.
That ain’t this week, I’m feeling kinda snarky.
1. Cutch Can’t Save Them This Year
If the Andrew McCutchen signing hasn’t taken place yet by the time this drops, it won’t be long. I’ve heard the deal is functionally done, it’ll be 5 million again, it’ll be one year again.
The Pirates signing Cutch before Pirates Fest was always going to happen. This team is arguably the worst organization I’ve ever seen as it comes to PR. That’s spanned management teams, team success and failure, good players, bad players, doesn’t matter, this team has exactly one trick when it comes to a PR win and that’s to turn to Andrew McCutchen. He even named our biggest moment in 30 years, the Blackout Game. Zoltan, he’s right there in the mix.
We all love him. Most of us want him back even if we aren’t entirely sure what they’ll do with him, or how close he might be to the end, but we for the most part want him to reach his milestones with the Pirates and from the moment they brought him back in 2023 Ben Cherrington, Bob Nutting and yes, Cutch himself all essentially decided this was not a rug they could pull out from under this fan base.
Think about it from everyone’s perspective. Nutting and Cutch are the reason he came back, yes, Cutch’s relationship with Nutting was just as important as his relationship with all of you. To even entertain this, Nutting needed to know this fan base wouldn’t have to see Cutch in another uniform to end his career. Cutch needed to know he wasn’t just playing for half a year and getting sent somewhere in July.
Cherington needed to know his boss wanted it, and he was to try to get it done. So even though this is a one year pact, knowing he’s at the mercy of this player hanging them up responsibly isn’t comfortable, I’m sure to a degree. I actually can completely understand this train of thought. Imagine you get a budget to run your household on, and because your boss (wife) demands you have the full scale expensive cable package. You don’t want to take that from your already limited budget, and maybe you can’t get that couch for an extra year as a result. Essentially, don’t give me a restrictive budget then tell me where 5 mil has to go.
For fans though, this time Cutch isn’t just a very pleasant surprise from a team that rarely delivers one on the positive side. Almost fairy tale level euphoria for a fan base that has not been given a lot to cheer about recently. This time he’s a guy they expected to return, and in a vacuum, at his age and level of gas in the tank, just on the field, this isn’t as exciting as it needs to be to feel the team is actually improving.
That’s really the point, Cutch coming back won’t have the effect it had last year. Last year it was one of the last things they did in the offseason and it came on top of a roster the team had already gone out and added to more than many of us expected for the 2023 season.
Now, he’s going to be the first “big” acquisition, and well, you know, it’s just not that big.
I’m happy to have him back, I’m sure most of you are too, but I’m fairly certain when the Pirates try to recapture the excitement they gained from his signing last year, I’m afraid I’ve got some bad news, fans want and expect more this time.
Cutch did produce when healthy last year, so this will help on the field too, but that won’t really have a chance to be the story before April.
2. What if. What is. What Could Be.
The management team has been given ample opportunities to backtrack on their statements as to improving/spending/competing in 2024, and every time, they doubled down.
After the Oviedo injury, Ben Cherington was asked if it would change his offseason plan, and instead of just saying yes or no, he instead set forth to reiterate his desire to acquire pitching, Cutch, and an outfielder. Travis Williams was given an opportunity to take the TV deal situation as a way to excuse not spending, and instead he said it would change nothing about their plan.
The point of all of this, the team has had ample opportunity to take an off ramp as it comes to expectations, and each time, they’ve rejected the chance and instead went further in.
I take a couple things from this. First, whatever this team puts together come Spring, I think it’s entirely reasonable to expect they’ve brought in what they felt would “compete”. They might be wrong, in fact if they leave it where it is now, even assuming Cutch, and show up in February ready for work, most fans would probably predict less success than last season not more.
In other words, you should in every conceivable way hold them accountable. Again, they’ve had ample opportunity to claim circumstances changed some things, and to their credit, they haven’t.
Now we’ll get to find out exactly what Ben Cherington’s estimation of “competitive team” is.
Look, he’s not getting fired after this year one way or another, just isn’t on the table people, but I bet he has some explaining to do. Fortunately he’d be explaining it to a man who has overseen mediocrity and called it success before so he’ll take it in stride and even he has to know he isn’t making it easy.
Fans won’t though. There’s no backing away from saying out loud you’re happy with what you have, while you still have time to add more and have it fail.
In other words, if we get to July and Rowdy Tellez has 350 at bats, a .214 average and 8 homeruns, well, I for one will look back to these statements, or, not changing them at least and take from this, Tellez was what you considered competitive. If we get to July and Mitch Keller looks like the only starter you can believe in, I’ll be pretty irritated and again, I’ll point back to what they opened with and backed it by and have to assume, they thought, hey, that’s competitive.
Fair is fair, if they bring in few additions, and it works, who am I to be upset it was cheap? I just think we have a gigantic list of examples to point to in which not enough, finishes looking exactly like not enough.
3. Things Are Improving
I know it’s not popular to say. I know they’ve done precious little this offseason, and I even know many of the players on the 40-man roster are at the very least unproven, but for the first time since 2015, I honestly feel they have 35 players who have a good shot of playing in MLB that I’d like to see more of.
I am down to 2 names I think they could DFA to make space without first making an addition that directly replaces them.
Canaan Smith-Njigba – I didn’t feel this way, but now that they’ve brought in Edward Olivares, talked about trying to have Cutch play RF a little, already have a situation where 2 of Palacios, Bae, and Olivares could start in AAA (unlikely on Olivares part as he’s arbitration eligible), I just don’t see a path for CSN here. This is about depth, not that I think CSN is the 41st best player in the org.
Alika Williams – If you remember, I called this one back when they decided to protect Tsung-che Cheng it probably spelled the end for Williams on the 40-man. Oneil Cruz, and Liover Peguero are both in front of him for SS. Peggy and Nick Gonzales, Jared Triolo and probably even Bae are in front of Williams for second base, and this team can’t hit enough to afford a 26-man spot on a defensive specialist aside from backup catcher. If he survives til Spring, make no mistake, Alika would have to hit his way onto this roster, and I just don’t see it.
After that, man I can’t see any more unless they’re directly replaced.
Baily Falter – is out of options, and while the Pirates probably do want him around for depth, there’s no way to do that without DFAing him to stash in AAA if he clears (he won’t) or making him a starter (I hope not) or stashing him in the pen, which I just don’t think works for the way he pitches unless it’s in a piggyback role. Either way, won’t happen until they have a viable alternative.
Colin Selby – I’m iffy on this one. Partially because despite what we saw last year, the Pirates remain high on him. And honestly, there’s reason to think they could be right. He has a big arm, and if they can harness it, he really could be a useful bullpen arm with options. This one would be hard for me to see them moving on if only because of the options, but all that bouncing back and forth didn’t do him favors last year either.
Max Kranick – Max jumped on the scene with 5 no hit innings and never reached those heights again before going down with UCL surgery. Before he was hurt he was one of the more exciting arms close to the league, now he’s the victim of not being around as he recovered. Holding on to him through his recovery and all the 60-man shenanigans tells me they would prefer to find a way to keep him but as I look at the roster even beyond the 40-man, I can’t imagine he has a path to starting in MLB with this club so he’s become an unproven bullpen arm with options or, a AAA starter which this team will need too. I honestly think if they tried to pass him through waivers he’d be claimed, and maybe you have to just let him go have an opportunity, might not be here. This one is hard for me, Max is a kid who took it upon himself to improve during COVID, and unlike most, took a huge jump while many just “lost a year”. I love that kind of gumption.
Kyle Nicolas – Nicolas has barely been given a cup of coffee, and I know they love his stuff. In fact, almost all of us who watch prospects have loved his stuff. Problem is, things he was inconsistent with, he’s still inconsistent with and potential will only get you so far when things start getting tight on a 40-man. We’re there.
This setup here is part of why so many are convinced there will be trades coming, and specifically dealing from the current 40-man. This could be for MLB help, or even just for guys who don’t have to be on the 40-man as the alternative is losing them for nothing, and we’re just about all out of guys who can be cut for nothing without a twinge of regret anyway.
The other thing to think about is after Spring gets rolling you’ll likely see Mike Burrows, JT Brubaker, and Endy Rodriguez all transferred back to the 60-day IL which would then open up some spots, but on the way there the team will add and those spots might just come too late to save some of these guys.
I’ll toss one more at you, and it’s nothing more than a thought. Roansy Contreras, he’s out of options and looked entirely lost last year. Don’t be so naive as to believe the team isn’t intimately aware of how he looks before they get to camp. Quite frankly if they don’t see a way he can help them this year, he might become someone they cut loose. I think they’d love to at least get him into Spring and hope he bounces back, after all, he was one of the very few locks for the rotation last year, and now he’s not even a lock to be an MLB pitcher.
The last caveat is, if they choose to add 5 more MLB players to improve the team, this number and list will be blown through. You can DFA a guy like Andre Jackson for instance, but you better have better.
If you want improvement, part of that is recognizing and admitting when a prospect isn’t going to pan out, at least not here. It sucks, but you’ve seen it with number one picks, way more in Pittsburgh than any team should mind you, so don’t be shocked when that guy who did that one thing you remember is deemed expendable or better yet, made expendable because obviously better and more proven talent has been brought in.
So why did I call this section “Things Are Improving”? Because this would have been a laughable discussion entering any of the previous 4 seasons.
4. Prospect Hugging
I was just thinking back to a memory of seeing video of this Mason Martin kid just dropping bombs in Bradenton and Greensboro back in 2019. It struck me because I just happened to take a look at the MiLB free agent board. Sometimes I like to see potential Spring invitees, or Non-Roster invitee types. Not because the Pirates need to fish there, but more because as you follow prospects over the course of years, you start to recognize the names of their peers.
Guys from other organizations, guys from our organization too, but you really start to realize, man, it’s incredibly hard to actually make it to the league and more often than not, they wind up just like Mason Martin who is himself sitting on that list, and for some reason seeing his name there, man it just smacked me in the face and I had to write about it.
In that list there are a bunch of guys I at least thought we should keep our eye on. Or it’s possible I’ve proposed acquiring them in a deal back when we were in tear down mode or someone I read did. Either way, seeing names like that, they don’t phase me. I see them every year, and every year I shrug, think about them for a minute and usually just move on. I mean, it’s the way it is, this is a hard game.
Mason Martin hit me though.
Back in 2019 as it had become clear the Pirates were likely to make some big changes at the top, it was easier to send your gaze down to the minors a bit. Start seeing if there was any help coming.
For some of us, and me at the time for damn sure, I’d never really paid a tremendous amount of attention to at least the lower level prospects. I mean, I was at some minor league games or whatever, and I generally knew the top 10 or 15 at any given time, but nowhere near knowledgeable.
So when I first saw Mason Martin hit a baseball a good 450 feet on someone’s highlight reel, man, I needed to see more. And more I did, Martin became one of my favorite prospects, and soon after I’d start writing about the Pirates.
Thank god, I wasn’t the prospect writer, instead I was someone reading the prospect experts as they told me to slow down because he has some holes.
Screw off I thought (really looking back gratefully that I wasn’t spewing all my “knowledge” on the internet) this kid just hit 35 homeruns and he plays first base, and we never have a first baseman and he’s even good at the position.
I’m telling you, convinced doesn’t begin to cover how all in I was on Mason Martin.
Then the rebuild started, and I had no choice but to start thinking about the minors a lot more. I mean, how else would you talk about where things were headed.
Boom COVID.
Know what the COVID season of baseball did for this guy? Yeah, spared me again from making an ass of myself by spitting game about minor league players at the lowest levels doing things at the MLB level few ever achieve.
I learned a lot in that time without minor league baseball. I learned how the rules work for player control, and movement, and the rule five and trustable tools vs fallible numbers and more than anything, I learned if I did this for 20 years I’d still have twice as much to learn.
By the time we were up and running again with ball, I was at least learned up enough to know to shut up most of the time. Still pulling for Mason to prove everyone wrong he instead set out to prove they were absolutely correct, he really couldn’t stop striking out that much.
Add “K rate fluctuates but rarely drastically changes” to my ever growing list of lessons learned.
Mason Martin, completely by accident taught me a very important lesson by doing nothing more than being a pretty damn good looking prospect, until they reach and stick in the league, you can like them all you want, but none of them are can’t miss.
Some of you probably learned a lot of this back with Chad Hermansen who was drafted in 1995 and never managed to replicate the power in the Bigs he showed in the minors but brought every one of his strikeouts.
Some of you started paying attention right when I did. For you, I’m sure someone you bought is on that list, somewhere else, or soon to be there, it happens, it’s ok, and next year, there’ll be another you can take the ride with.
Names you know, are going to start popping up more and more, and not because they’re being promoted.
5. The Ghost Payroll Future
Payroll for a team that considers money a challenge, meaning all teams who claim to not have enough, don’t have enough, are just evil cretons who own baseball teams, I’m just trying to get all that shiz out the way, because while some want to fight about what should be, or even could be if you want to start a cap conversation, reality is, we have what we have, and we know what we know.
If you find no joy in watching a team you are convinced is trying to cheat you, I mean, who could blame you. I personally feel it’s a little bit want to, a little bit ability and a little bit look at how much lower our top end than theirs is why would we try. And not just here.
Point is, we know what it is here, and we can discuss all that other stuff another time, again, for like the thousandth time, if you insist, and maybe buy me a beer.
The Pirates bottomed out their payroll in 2021-2022.
They have only a few committed salaries this beyond this year. It’s been that way really since Gregory Polanco was DFA’d.
They’ve added in Hayes and Reynolds on lengthy extensions for modest AAV and this year I believe the plan is to add another name or two to that list.
All told I’ve heard talk of potentially having talks with David Bednar, Mitch Keller and even Oneil Cruz as early as this year. That stuff is all good.
They’ll have to do more of it too. To guess about who would come next after those few would be to assume any of them are good enough to stay here and even with Henry Davis, man I can’t go there yet. Knowing us, he’ll have a fire season in 2024 and 90% of us will fear he’s too expensive, you know, exactly what you think Cruz will do.
Point is, as this goes on, the Pirates payroll will go up. They’ll manage this by structuring these deals to work together to a degree. For instance, Ke’Bryan Hayes contract was more expensive last year than it’ll be this year. He has a valley built in to his contract.
For players they don’t extend, they’ll increasingly be added to the arbitration coffers. This year was very light, a symptom of having a very young team in fact, they just added another in Edward Olivares who is in Arb 1 this year and could get upwards of 1.1 million. Next year of course barring moves they are only scheduled to add Johan Oviedo who will of course be recovering from Tommy John so he won’t get a whole lot likely and Mitch Keller if not extended would reach his last year of arbitration.
Now in 2026, we’re either looking at an extended Bednar or it’s his last year. You’re also looking at guys like (should they be successful) Peguero, Ortiz, Roansy, Priester either there or right on the cusp if not started on arbitration.
What I’m telling you here is, this team if left to grow together would go all the way through 2025 and likely not exceed a 100 million dollar payroll.
Now, I’d like to think they’d exceed that and push the ball forward. Historically, this is a team that as it comes to the budget is already concerned about 2027. I say that because if their youth movement they started in earnest last year pans out, they’ll have a ton of players on arbitration, and that adds up quickly for a team that counts pennies.
Then you have, what if this guys is as good as he could be!?! What if Paul Skenes is everything we dreamed of?
Well, he’d start this year making the minimum and his first arb year would likely be 2028 and if he’s the beast we hope, who knows how much that would be. Thing is, don’t be so naive as to think they haven’t absolutely thought about it.
Because when other teams sign a guy for 12 years and 275 million or whatever which is like 23 million a year, fans love to look at the Pirates payroll and show how easily that would fit.
It’s true, it would, it could, and all that stuff I told you to ignore at the beginning absolutely applies. But the team, they are thinking about how this team plays out, who they might sign, how much it’ll take, who is scheduled to make what designation when, how long can we spin all the plates without one falling?
That’s not how a baseball team in today’s game I believe is going to win a lot. Not saying it’s impossible, but it’s a lot more work, and you have much less room for error. I already see too much error to think they can do this without some actual outside investment.
I said for a while now, I think the payroll will climb above 100 million as early as 2025 and as late as 2026 if only because it kinda has to. They set the schedule by bringing up all these kids, and to augment it, well, they can “afford it” yes, take all the caveats, but functionally, they feel they can afford, ok, feel better? a lot easier now before these kids reach arbitration than later when they themselves will be expected to be the “high priced” talent, even if that’s a 7 million dollar arb 2 award.
You can bottom out in baseball, but you can’t stay there like the Rays unless you mercilessly move on before you pay the worst part of anything you sign and make out like a bandit with talent, then develop it.
Does that sound like a Pirates set of skills? Seems to me we’re looking at an outside investment but not until they believe they’re ready.
If it sounds familiar, it is.
Owners at the end of the day decide how their teams operate, they just buy smarter curtains to decorate every once in a while. We’ll find out soon if he did at least that.
This isn’t a defense of how they have and I believe will continue to operate, it’s just to say, they aren’t gonna wake up one year and decide they’re now a team that gets that top end pitcher for 3 years.
They might keep when they develop.
They might spend to keep.
They’ll never spend until they have to.
Pirates change, but until Bob isn’t Bob, they’ll always operate under the restrictions he places on top of baseball’s inherent economic inequity. No matter how bright eyed and bushy tailed the GM he hires is.
Every team will be a reflection of their owner and their market until somehow baseball changes the rules. Call that what you want. The boogieman that the Cap has become, or relegation, or contraction or whatever you dream up is the fix. Hey, maybe have Bezos, Elon and Bill Gates buy all the teams and give them all an equal allowance. That’s all that will change owners like Bob Nutting from having the freedom to not risk his investment. In a league where it simply isn’t a risk at all for a few.
Payroll will likely rise every year through the end of the decade if I had my guess, and unless the game itself changes.
Craig sits down to talk about Future Value, how it differs between Hitters/Position Players and Pitchers, who in the Pirates Minor League System has the most value and how this translates to his confidence level in a number of prospects.
Craig Toth covers the Pirates for Inside The Bucs Basement, and is a huge Pittsburgh Pirates Baseball Fan; especially when it comes to the Farm System. Listen. Subscribe. Share. We are “For Fans, By Fans & All Pirates Talk.” THE Pirates Fan Minor League Podcast found EVERYWHERE podcasts can be found and always at BucsInTheBasement.com!
Two stories broke yesterday. One, the Pirates signed a free agent, Rowdy Tellez. I’ll circle back to this, but nothing much changed from what I wrote two Monday’s ago in 5 Thoughts.
The second nugget is a much more somber note. Endy Rodriguez has had UCL/Tommy John Surgery and will miss all of 2024.
I’m going to write about both here together, because when things happen right next to each other, there automatically tends to be an immediate measuring of what went out vs what came in. In a situation like this, that of course isn’t fair, it’s not like Endy was traded for Tellez, but functionally, there’s no way to avoid the in vs out nature of these two things happening at the same time.
Deflating to say the least, potentially on both counts.
Let’s start with Tellez.
OK, I don’t expect you to click back and see what I wrote, but I’ll sum it up, he had a lot of success in 2022, he hasn’t been in great shape and he’s a meh first baseman. Let’s move the ball forward now that the signing has happened.
First things first, I’m not sure what they think Tellez will be here. Yes, he can play first base. I’m just not sure what they plan. He signed for 3.2 million with incentives that could bring it up to 4. Even for the Pirates, that hasn’t been starting first baseman money. I mean, just last year they brought in 3 players to fill the position (Santana, Joe, Choi). Carlos for 6.75 million, Joe 735K, and Choi for 4.65 million. That’s 12.135 million to fill the first base position in 2023, and I find it hard to believe in a year where they claim to be trying harder, this will be the stopping point.
If this is it for first base, I can’t say I’m satisfied. If this is just a guy to add depth at first base and off the bench or even as a DH, I actually kinda like it. Thing is, I don’t see Tellez as a guy who should see many left handed pitchers. This is as clear a platoon player as you’ll find.
Essentially, if you think back to last year, the Pirates traded for Choi and we all assumed OK, we have our first baseman, even as almost nobody saw it as good enough. Then they proceeded to get Joe, who had been little more than a replacement level player, and then Santana who of course had a track record, but also nearly qualifies for AARP.
Point is, we were just as ready to label their first acquisition as the nailed on starter last year, and he played 23 total games for the Pirates. Injury of course helped write that story, but the point is the Pirates were much more prepared at first base than signing one journeyman platoon player for 3 million bucks which leads me to believe they’ll not consider the position “filled”. OK, I’ll give you whatever Joe winds up costing too, which looks like 2 Million. So I’ll give you 5 for the position, I think my point stands.
Again, unless they feel they have an internal answer, and if I’m running a club trying to win, I don’t think there is one. Maybe someone you let work their way into it, but not someone I’d just hand it to.
Triolo will come up, and I don’t hate it the way many do, but listen to my latest podcast and see what you think about Jared as an option there. I won’t say we put him on blast, but BABIP rarely lies, at least it doesn’t to the degree it would have to in order for me to be sold on Jared at the moment. Need to see a bit more at least before considering him a 1B fixture. There are some swing changes the team made that should they take hold, yeah, you’ll swing me in that direction pretty easy, but 2024 can’t be all about hope.
OK, Endy time.
This hurts.
But it hurts more for the delay in this kid potentially becoming what we hoped he could, not because we’ve lost someone who took the league by the balls in 2023.
Initially he’s being spoken about like we just lost Buster Posey after the Series Win. A good team wouldn’t even consider him a lock to start, and yes, I mean that. Even given their situation, at the very least the team owed it to themselves and Henry Davis to make the Spring competition a real one.
Here’s why.
Endy laid this down after his call up, which followed a lackluster offensive season in AAA too. Numbers we’ve excused by way of accounting for all the hard work defensively. There’s some truth there for sure, but facts are facts, he struggled at the plate last year.
57 games, 204 plate appearances, a .220 average, OPS of .612.
As I’ve said before, with rookies, I’m not married to numbers. I’ll take growth, flashes, signs, anything. For me, here’s how I describe Endy’s 2023 season as a whole.
Endy fully transitioned to catching in 2023, and that’s a load that takes some time to understand how to carry. His bat showed all the signs of being transformative in AA, but in AAA, he looked overmatched, if not a bit “sloppy” mechanically at the dish. Which is 100% not him, it’s not what he’s been, what we’ve seen, and I think that’s why it’s so easy to give him points if you will for how much focus he paid to defense and not to training as a switch hitter which I’ve had one such batter describe to me as making two omelets with two skillets at the same time and having them both look the same. Knowing his focus was on defense, I’m encouraged he showed such marked improvement in that area. Was hoping 2024 would be where he starts knowing more and learning less so he has time to focus on the offensive side of the game. Now I think we’ll watch Henry experience some of what Endy did last year.
Folks, if you didn’t already have yourself sold on Endy from his time in the minors, in fact, imagine the Pirates just acquired a guy from Detroit with these exact same numbers and all the exact same scouting reports on him. Are you happily handing him the starting catcher role to start 2024 and acting like Ben Cherington is a genius?
Please don’t take this as me telling you Endy stinks, or I’m ok with his injury. It ain’t like that ok? What I’m saying is, you’re upset at the loss of what you hoped his potential would translate to in 2024, me too, but I can’t sit here in front of this laptop and tell you he would have. I hope he does, I want him to, I’m sad I won’t get to see that until 2025 and if Henry does what we now have to hope he does, who knows if Catching is even on the table when he comes back.
I really mean this, Endy, if everything goes right will be back sometime close to a month before next Spring Training. Meaning the Spring before 2025. After a full year of Henry likely playing 3/4 of the season (god willing, it’s not like he’s been healthy), well, who’s to say Endy is displacing the Pirates 1:1 selection. It could also work as a nice shelter for him to warm to the task instead of being nailed on counted on too, which might be important.
I’ll play this out further. Let’s say Henry stinks. It’s not what I think, it’s just a possibility we can’t discount until we see otherwise, well, then we get to that same Spring and now we’re looking at a guy who couldn’t get established in a full season, and one who hasn’t played in a year, and never got himself established in MLB either.
Just to illustrate something I think people miss. Had this injury happened to him last year before he debuted, suddenly he returns to AAA, and now as a 23 year old, recovering from injury, working to get back an impressive arm that helped mask a bunch of defensive warts. Before you know it, he’s 24, just debuting or maybe waiting for his chance and most of us kinda shrug about losing that potential star. Thing is, had he not debuted, and this injury derailed his promotion to the league, he goes from hot shot prospect to “long in the tooth” prospect to some almost overnight through no fault of his own.
This happens to kids all the time. In Endy’s case, for him, it’s really best he’s already a Major Leaguer.
The perception of Endy is better than what Endy has actually done. Again, I don’t say that to paint this as no big loss, I say it because being 100% honest, we lost potential, not something we should have been counting on, just hoping for with a lot of evidence it’s a good bet.
ALL of that said, what an opportunity for Henry Davis. There’s no way to see this aside from Davis has no excuse to not take the catcher position. There’s no alternative phenom there, there’s no big prospect behind him. It’s the position he wants to play and regardless of anything that happened with Hank last year, the turkey is on the table. That can’t be denied. If he can’t hit and field well enough behind the dish to be a starter on a team with Jason Delay and Ali Sanchez, chances are you won’t want him as a DH either. A big year for Davis, just became gigantic, and for shits and giggles the safety net has just been removed.
If Davis fails, they likely have no choice but to acquire a veteran catcher to start 2025. To work through both these guys, injuries aside cause nobody will forgive them for it anyway, and not come out of it with 1 being a starting MLB catcher, in my mind might make or break this rebuild, well, that and how much of the rotation they can develop this year.
Craig and Chris begin the show by discussing the unavoidable Ohtani news, before moving onto the Marco Gonzales trade and Josh Naylor rumors.
Brought to you by ShopYinzz.com! Craig Toth covers the Pirates for Inside The Bucs Basement, and joins his buddy Chris at a 9-foot homemade oak bar to talk Pittsburgh Pirates Baseball. Listen. Subscribe. Share. We are “For Fans, By Fans & All Pirates Talk.” THE Pirates Fan Podcast found EVERYWHERE podcasts can be found and always at BucsInTheBasement.com!
Well, we finally know where Shohei Ohtani will play baseball next year, The Dodgers and some of us pretended it wasn’t almost 100% guaranteed to be his landing spot. Toronto was little more than a decoy in this whole thing and we’ve already seen the “good person” tests issued. You know, you have to be 100% happy for Ohtani getting 700 million or you’re an evil owner loving bootlicker, or a sore loser fan of one of the loser teams that “would never”, not couldn’t, participate. Even as this deal makes Ohtani on paper richer than Cincinnati’s owner. Look, if you’re one of the people attaching some kind of moral litmus test on things like this, I promise, I’m never more than 2 sentences from pointing out how hypocritical you are, and what side you take hardly matters.
You see, for some, you must hate the “rich”, and root for “labor”, but when labor makes as much as many of the rich, I’d simply point out, much like Alex Rodriguez before him along with a host of others, Ohtani himself will become the hated “rich”. That’s right, he’ll employ people (and they might even make less than him!!!), he’ll donate money to avoid taxes, he’ll start businesses, he’ll invest in businesses, I bet he’ll even fire people, but the way he earned his money will be different. Different in that you’ll know, read, hear how hard it was for him to earn it, hell, you watched it. Regardless of the truth, 90% of baseball owners are there cause daddy was rich right? We accept the rich as long as they’re the right kind of rich, or they visibly spend the right way, or, I suppose, if they are a member of the most powerful union in the country.
He deserves every last penny. That doesn’t mean it’s good for baseball. When you have to bargain with the part of yourself that isn’t ok with 100% of something, you aren’t abandoning your principles, you’re critically thinking. Enjoy.
In case you can’t tell, I’m a bit irritated by this Ohtani story. For a ton of different reasons too, none of which spawns from believing the Pirates or 27 other teams were really in this or that it guarantees a World Series for the Dodgers.
1. Necessities List for 2024
This isn’t going to be another post about what this team needs to add this offseason. Nope, it’s going to instead be my yearly list of questions to answer. Last year number 1 on my list was “Will this team lock up Reynolds or are we farther away?”, and thankfully this one was answered at least partially, maybe the farther away part wasn’t as tied to that as I’d hoped.
Anyway, here we go.
Will they get the Keller Extension done? I can’t think of anything internal more pressing. Given the state of the rotation, he’s the only internally developed anchor they have, and I think they’ve more than proven what a pitcher like him would cost on the open market, they aren’t doing. And, much like Reynolds and Hayes before him, he too very much so wants to be here.
How many starters can get a foothold? This doesn’t have to be all prospects, this could be anyone. Say Jackson surprises us and the Pirates, point is, can we enter the offseason following 2024 with 3 starters we feel good about under team control? To me, there is no more crucial question as to how seriously we should be taking 2025. If this is Keller, Priester and Jones, awesome. If it’s Keller, Brubaker, and Ortiz, sweet. I don’t care, just don’t enter the offseason after 2024 needing 3/5 of a rotation. Have Skenes ready to enter a settled situation should he not make it this year and be one of them.
Is Oneil Cruz a Star? Honestly, I feel most of us have taken for granted he’s going to destroy MLB. I don’t just mean good, I think some folks have him as capable of Acuna stuff this year. Maybe he is, but folks, we don’t even 100% know where he is going to play. We know where he’ll start trying to play, but that’s it. I don’t need Cruz to be the SS to be a good player, but I do need him to tell us this year where he’s going to play if not there. His injury made this a priority, we’re talking about a guy that as we sit here, we can’t put a finger on value, just his enormously high ceiling. I’ll sum up what this season for Cruz is for this team, picture him as an emerging superstar and with a little pitching, this could be fun. Picture him as a struggling young player who hasn’t played a ton of baseball in the past couple years, this could be not so fun. It’s not all on him, but many fans are already looking at him like the second coming, imagine if after waiting all this time he kinda doesn’t have much to say.
Find clarity at catcher. Not a question so much as a need. They have to figure out what they’re doing here. If it’s a question heading into 2025, I’m afraid they won’t know what holes to fill and which to leave exposed.
If someone looks like they’re taking second base, LET THEM! With as many players as the Pirates have who can and have played second base, my fear is they won’t give any of them a true shot to win it. Having guys compete for it is fine, but when one looks like they’re taking the lead, they need to let them run with it and see what every day looks like on them. Take your obvious breaks and what not, but if Peguero looks like he’s finding it for a couple games, give him a month. Let him try to feel owning a position instead of wondering every day where he might play, if he might. I’d rather not try to win with 7 guys who consider themselves utility players. We’ll never see if someone can handle it, if we don’t find let them try. The only reason not to is to fear choosing the wrong one, and again, you’ll never know until the Pirates or someone else lets them play.
Make 2024 decision year on Shelton. If Ben Cherington gives Derek Shelton what he believes to be “competitive” there can be no outcome that doesn’t reflect on Shelton. Cherington too, but he’ll survive beyond this season regardless. First, he gets the manager to blame. And yes, he hired him, buck stops here, all that, but fans do that stuff, not front offices. I’d imagine that plays out this year. I don’t think he has to make the playoffs (for the team, not your expectations), but I do think if they don’t the team has to have fairly big injury problems to have the focus not point at Shelton. Just my opinion here, nobody has so much as whispered Shelton’s name within earshot of me that hinted at anything other than him coaching here for a very long time.
2. An Outfield Spot is Available
The news about how the Pirates plan to use Henry Davis behind the dish opens a hole some had only had as a luxury. The starting outfielders as we sit here today are Bryan Reynolds in Left and Jack Suwinski in Center. Regardless of how this turns out, the intention of the team is for Jack Suwinski to play just about every day, and unless they bring in a better option, they plan to have him handle Center.
Some of you probably hold out hope that Ji Hwan Bae can eventually take hold in Center, and I’m sure the Pirates aren’t done trying that too, but he’s seen as being more capable of the spectacular than the routine, and that’s not great when you don’t have a game changing arm to make up for miscues. Additionally, his bat simply hasn’t shown enough to consider taking a huge jump as extremely likely. Rather Bae is a group of skillsets, it remains to be seen if he’ll turn it into a ballplayer. He doesn’t have to hit 20 homeruns, he doesn’t have to hit .300, but if he’s going to stick, he needs to get on base at more than a .300 clip, and whatever yips he developed on the bases, he needs to overcome them.
The Bucs have to find some help, because Joshua Palacios isn’t enough to count on either. feels like this is setting up for a couple options, neither of which I’m in love with but I could see them thinking like this.
First one is Andrew McCutchen except this year, actually play him in Right 25-30 games. This could help unlock and utilize the DH spot better, but at Cutch’s age, we could be a calf strain away from a plan being shelved.
Next is to get a player who can play first base and outfield, but most of those aren’t entirely good at either.
I think I’d much prefer they spend a bit of money here, and folks, I’d get the Center Fielder, as opposed to the corner guy. I know they need power, but center is where they need to add another playable player in my opinion.
I know it’s not something we had at the top of the list, but I’d feel much better getting another bat with some experience. Sounds like Cherington is leaning toward getting an outfielder too, but it feels to me this isn’t a spot to just get a bench guy to compete with Palacios or Joe for playing time, I’d rather get something that lifts the whole group.
3. Roansy Contreras On the Brink, but Don’t Count Him Out
Roansy Contreras is out of options. His need to be protected and option situation was part of the reason the Yankees made him available, and since Contreras started his Pirates journey largely just killing it, most of us headed into 2023 had him in the “OK there’s something there” category. After 2023 played out, it’s hard to bring up his name without feeling a little sad. He was as developed as anyone in the rotation when we began the season and by the end, the man was nearly in tears on the mound at PNC, frustrated, probably scared of what was happening to him, and on a team just as concerned and just as full of questions.
Something happened to Roansy last year, and it wasn’t just the league learning. No, all the things you measure for a player like this changed.
I mean, look at this…
Folks, a change like that, drastic changes in some of these things, they just don’t drastically jump like that, not with no reason anyway.
We talk about things in generalities because bluntly, none of us are experts, but that extension figure is the weirdest one. An increase in that was almost 100% taught, trained, and encouraged. In fact, I know it is internally one of their focal points. They’d like all their pitchers to have great extension, it makes velo seem faster, and it makes break more exaggerated, for the hitters. But everything else took a hit. None more than his chase rate, which was near elite and became barely pedestrian. Fastball velo is way down percentage wise, but the actual measured velo, not all that much really.
His off speed and breaking stuff actually got more effective. His fastball a precipitous fall off the table. Again, the velo didn’t really drop much, even the spin didn’t change much. What did change was physically his extension, which in turn changes his release point.
There’s something weird here. As far as I know, and of course I’ve asked, I’ve even asked my journalist friends to ask, which they have. Nobody has a physical injury being a cause here. In fact, as I said earlier, the extension numbers don’t jive with the issues he’s encountered.
All that said, a decision will be forced this year. A Roansy Contreras that looks even like he did in 2022 changes the complexion of all of our rotation conversations doesn’t it? In fact, if Roansy comes back looking like the one we all envisioned pitching meaningful games for Pittsburgh, it means a ton for how this whole thing progresses.
2023, we find out if he’s in, or he’s out. It really kinda is that simple.
4. Deflated
It’s kinda hard to jump right back into talking about free agency here for me. I mean, for my own mental health, lol, I don’t want to follow all this Ohtani news by telling some fan the 15 million dollar guy he wants his favorite team to sign is “too expensive” or risky or whatever. It’s no less true than it was 2 days ago, but, well, talk about how great marriage is to someone who just got divorced. Deep down they probably believe in love but for right now, go to hell, amiright?
Again, I feel the need to keep repeating this, I LOVE Ohtani, and honestly know he deserves every penny, I even know he’ll make that much for the Dodgers. I don’t begrudge him any of what he gets, even if they paid for what he was, as opposed to what he’ll be for most of his contract. Doesn’t even matter for what he’ll bring in financially off the field. Nothing about this is just “Rich team signs great baseball player”, it’s much more international icon territory, and Japan is ALL in on Ohtani mania. You may have looked, but relatively speaking, LA and Japan ain’t too far apart, and they’ve NEVER seen him make the playoffs, that very likely changes this year.
Point is, I need a minute, cause I don’t know about you, but the Pirates could sign Jordan Montgomery for 25 million a year and I’m not sure I could muster the excitement for it I’d have had 2 days ago, not right now anyway. Even though absolutely nothing has changed for my baseball team, or their chances, the simple charade that how much he was signed for would have impact in light of current events, I’d have a hard time really enjoying it. That’s me, certainly hope it’s not you, I don’t like having clouded thoughts I can’t shake.
I’ll get past it, I always do. Sometimes just writing stuff like this will kick me in the ass. In many ways, it’s like that time in your life when you’re sitting in a meeting, listening to someone tell you how they saved 55 cents a year from some process change and you realize, hey, this isn’t what I went to school for is it?
You get it? I’ll rebound, and you’ll probably pretend you’re having fun drinking a beer brand you don’t like at a holiday party with people you work with every day too this year. We all just need to find our dose of copium.
5. Deferring Contract Money
Here’s part of the Ohtani deal that is worthy of real concern, especially if you believe MLB’s system of taxing the big spenders to fund the low revenue teams is working. We don’t have real numbers yet, but estimates for how much of Ohtani’s record breaking 700 million dollar deal could be deferred well into the future have been floated that could turn his 70 million per AAV into a number that looks a lot more like 30-35.
The way the CBA is structured, the Dodgers (and many other teams by the way) have the ability to defer a percentage of salary, of course given the player is on board into the future.
I’m not going to try to tell you this just started, it simply hasn’t. You all know the Bobby Bonilla story where he gets a cool million from the Mets every year. No, this has been going on forever.
Thing is, there haven’t always been CBA Tax cap implications.
This used to be a way for teams to stretch their budget. Need a player now, well, pay for some of him later when you have more room in the budget. It’s just like going to Levin Furniture, the couch as a 1,200 dollar hit vs a 40 dollar monthly hit can sound doable if you don’t have the 1,200, even if it’ll cost you in the long run.
It enabled the Cincinnati Reds to bring Ken Griffey Jr. home, and last year in 2023 the Reds paid Junior 3.6 million bucks. Only 2 Reds players made more.
The Orioles are still paying for their Chris Davis mistake, 9 million last year. Just a million less than their top paid player Kyle Gibson. Hell, they paid good old Bobby Bonilla 500K too!
So it’s not new, the Washington Nationals used it to retain Stephen Strasberg, a mistake they’ll pay for well into the future, and a mistake they made AFTER he provided a World Series Championship.
This though, this is different. This is from Jeff Passan at ESPN, “The Dodgers are going to pay Ohtani $700 million, but the present-day value of the contract will be markedly lower. The details matter. How much of the money is deferred (“a majority,” said a source) and how long the deferrals last will give a better sense of how good of a deal this might be for the Dodgers, minutiae that will offer a better understanding when the deal is official sometime midweek.
This part is key,
Major League Baseball discounts deferrals when calculating the amount teams are charged in the competitive balance tax accounting system, and rather than the $70 million a year a straight contract would cost, Ohtani’s deal is expected to wind up somewhere in the range of $40 million to $50 million a year.”
Now, the benefit to the Dodgers here is clear. Because of this, they’ll be able to spend more this year to surround him. Totally makes sense, but on a contract of this size, we’re no longer talking about 5 mil here or 500K for this guy, instead we’re talking about hundreds of millions potentially being spread out so that less tax money is put back into the system as well.
In theory, the Dodgers could push this thing out 40 years. People will praise Ohtani for wanting to win so much he begged the team to defer some of his salary. They’ll praise the smarts to basically set up a retirement pension for himself. Almost nobody will talk about how this is jobbing the system. And no, I don’t think Ohtani had anything but altruistic intentions here, I’m sure he did want it this way for competitive reasons.
Again, I don’t believe the system works, but let me explain the theory and yes, I am in a mood, so it’ll be filled with smarm, sorry.
Big revenue teams spend lots of money because they have lots of money. Low revenue teams don’t because they “can’t”.
Regardless of what any one owner is capable of, MLB as far as this process and set of rules is concerned, there very much so are owners who can, and owners who can’t. It’s probably more accurately Owners who do and owners who don’t, but as far as MLB is concerned, the revenues generated directly by baseball are the only revenues that count.
They don’t care who made their money where. The baseball team and what it generates is all that counts.
Some teams can’t spend a ton, some can. Simplified to it’s core.
The Luxury tax was implemented to help keep the lid on an ever widening gap form top to bottom. For a while it was a brake in the spending, it was even strengthened in the last CBA.
Immediately after signing the CBA Steve Cohen and the Mets set forth to thumb their nose as the scary new penalties put in place.
The Yankees, Dodgers, Padres, Mets, they all blew past the new “roof”, and now, I think we’re going to start seeing them using deferrals to limit the tax paid.
If there is less tax paid, there is less revenue sharing spawned by it. Again, I don’t feel it works, but this is the theory, that the rich teams spending, actually helps the non spending teams with their tax dollars.
Maybe next time I’ll get into how this system actually incentivizes a team to just stay on MLB welfare if you will.
It’s easy to just scream cap and floor and have that stupid fight to nowhere with each other. In the meantime, this system is broken and we aren’t even looking at how badly because we’re too hung up on cap vs no cap. There are things we could try to fix or improve that could at least make things a bit more even.
Folks, unless you have been living under a rock, you’ve probably heard Ben Cherington’s quotes about payroll this year, but just in case, let’s go ahead and make sure they’re fresh in your mind.
“I would anticipate us ending up above where we landed last year,”
Let’s start there. nothing wrong there right? I mean I guess you’d prefer he just blurt out of course we’ll be above last year! Way above! But all in all, he’s not limiting it there, but he also isn’t really instilling expectations too high is he?
“Generally speaking, we expect that as we get better, the payroll will continue to climb with us.
OK, so this isn’t to parse this, but regardless of what he means here, he’s right. Without doing anything but playing kids, and finding some who stick, arbitration, extensions, and yes, signings on top of them, payroll will continue to climb with them. The 100 Million dollar mark is coming, because it can’t be avoided at this point, maybe not this year but for sure next. And it’s the exact reason the payroll peaked in 2015 too. I think people look back on that time and somehow come to the belief that a GM just wakes up one day and says, we’re ready Bob, and he grudgingly says ok. It’s really more like how your household bills go up as your lot in life does. Get a bigger house, pay more for energy. Well, get a kid developed to that 1st arb year and who knows, you could go from 800K to 10 million for a Cruz.
To some extent, motivation for us is if we can actually push that as we get better. Chicken or the egg, but competitiveness can help speed that up. That’s the way we’re operating.”
I’m not claiming to know his intension here, instead, I’ll just tell you what I heard if I had an imaginary GMBC translator app for my phone. What I took was something like this, we’re gonna add and if the kids we’re trusting to improve perform, we can push to spend more at the deadline to support it, but if not, cautiously add.
That’s what I got on the comments, now, lets just talk about payroll a bit, because I’ll be blunt, I just don’t think the amount of payroll they add will equal the amount of talent they bring in. Marco Gonzales had a down year and is coming off an injury. He’s also been a good pitcher in this league. He was going to make 12.5 million this year, he still will, but almost all of it save 2.75 million appears to be paid by the Braves and Mariners. If Marco were to be on the free agent market, solid chance he gets 8.5-10 million. Yes, injury concerns included. Yes, down season all above board here. That’s value. I don’t know if Gonzales is gonna work out, but let’s say he does, now they have a pitcher for next to nothing, with a mid tier free agent level option year (15 Million) that makes him more valuable. Listen, Aldi shoppers probably get this right away. Ain’t nothing wrong with a bargain but sometimes you’re gonna have a vein in your Chicken.
Frankly, if he’s smart and trades to acquire a lot of what he needs while somehow keeping payroll low, who am I to bitch ya know? Hey, if it happens, good for you smarty. I think it’d be easier to stretch the wallet a bit and hopefully stretch their competitive window by a year in the process, but I digress.
Now, those of you who read my stuff regularly or listen to the Pirates Fan Forum have probably heard me toss out a projection of 85-90 million this year.
A modest increase over 2023, and based on the end of year payroll figures we expect to have confirmed sometime later this month. For the Pirates it looks like that figure for 2023 will be very close to 75 million. For perspective, they’re estimated to be around 58 million as we speak. That acknowledges they’ll still make more moves of course, but it also accounts for moves they’ve already made as well as estimates for arbitration awards that have yet to be determined. All of this comes from the great work ofEthan Hullihen who has very closely matched the Forbes report (It’s like the Bible to payroll watchers, as it’s the only number sanctioned by the MLBPA and the Owners every year). So what Ethan does is provide you that number as the season plays out.
It’s important to understand that the payroll is a fluid thing. It changes all year long as players are demoted, promoted, moved, injured, transferred, accrue bonuses, trigger incentives, you know, whatever happens to a player or team throughout the season.
I say all that to point out, when Ben Cherington talks about payroll going up it may not be as simple as taking that 58 million dollar number and seeing how much room you have ’til you hit 75 for a starting point, 17 million for those of you who use fingers and toes to count.
In order for payroll to increase only moderately, the Pirates probably would need to keep their remaining free agent and trade acquisitions around 12 million. If they did that, I’d assume by the end of the year all that life stuff will have hit them and the payroll would finish in the 85-90 range, unless as Ben says up there and they perform, then perhaps you could see them take on more payroll to support whatever constitutes a run.
That’s moderation 100%.
That also won’t likely get the job done, at least not a playoff appearance type transformation, unless, they do it somehow with more Gonzales type deals. Or, and I hate to pile on here, the kids ball out. If 4 or 5 kids go ham all bets are off about everything really, but it’s almost too unlikely to broach right now for me.
Again, I’m not shocked that the Pirates would want to be careful this year. The TV deal is going to wind up costing them likely in the neighborhood of 10 mil one way or another, and bluntly, the majority of the team are first or second year players who the team has to be committed to playing.
In fact, that young group of players is probably the biggest reason payroll won’t go up a whole bunch, they can’t block them all either, because in order for this thing to work, they must have some of the rotation filled by young, controlled pitchers. They need to fortify, and brace this rotation with sturdy enough blocks they could pass for a finished product, and all the while be actively hoping for and working toward having a Quinn Priester or Luis Ortiz push away the facade of one of them. The other way to go is to get a real front line starter to add to Gonzales and Keller and allow the back of the rotation to be a sandbox, where you try and let several starting options try to win it or gravitate to bullpen mix and match to compensate while they grow.
It’s a lot of things, and there are a lot of ways you could go. Looks, and sounds to me, like this is what they plan. Feels to me like they still aren’t in a place where they want anyone for next year, unless it’s their choice and theirs alone. Part of that comes from the very real need to make sure this is primarily achieved with young and affordable players, and it might just be what makes it so hard to rebuild.
If you get the pitching developed first like the Marlins, you wind up having to sell some of it to balance the scales with offense you didn’t develop yet.
The Pirates look like they’re closer on offense, and you certainly can’t enter a season with all kids in a rotation, not even the Pirates of 2021 wanted to do that, but ideally sometime in September, you’d love if your best 5 were Keller, Contreras, Ortiz, Priester, Skenes/Jones/Burrows/Brubaker. And all those options are why we won’t see them (aside from fear of spending in the first place of course) sign a pitcher for multiple years unless it’s a team option.
Yup. A cheap owner caused this. Yup, a team that spends wouldn’t consider half of the crap I just spoke too. All that said, a team that spends would never be in this situation to begin with. They wouldn’t have torn down, like this in the first place, and if they did, they’d be THE player on the Free agent market next year.
I certainly don’t wanna tell you to just shut up and “let him cook”, cause man we don’t know how it’ll taste. To a degree though, I’m willing to accept he can get some stuff done that doesn’t cost much, yet adds value in all the right places. That’s the fun outcome anyway.
Happy offseason,
Here’s hoping the media doesn’t miss a single Ohtani Door Dash order.