THREE Guys Talkin’ Trades – The Winter Meetings Approach

11-4-23 – By Justin Verno, Joe Boyd & Corey Shrader – @JV_PITT, @Joe_Boyd11 and @CoreyShrader on Twitter

Justin Verno- Before we get going here I’d like to take a second to welcome back my original partner in crime, my OG, Joey Boyd. That’s right everyone! Three is the magic number!

Joey Boyd- Wow, thanks so much for having me back!  It’s been too long.. Let’s see if I still know what I’m doing!

Corey Shrader- Welcome back, Joe! I am very excited to see the additional dimension of having your voice back on these pieces. Not only because I am looking forward to hearing your thoughts on these scenarios, but now our readers will also get some additional perspective to consider. Exciting stuff!

JV- Fellas, we’ve been waiting for this, haven’t we?  To turn the tables? To flip the script?  To run the reverse? To see the toilet swirl counterclockwise? To switch gears? The sellers become the buyers, at long last!

JB – Jud, before we get to that, let’s do a few of our classic trades.  We have a few guys to chat about before we pivot to adding pieces!  Let’s start with David Bednar.  If we break down the value for Bednar based on his ZiPS projections and my salary arb projections, we’re looking at a value of $10.13M, but those are some very conservative ZiPS projections of 0.8 WAR in 2024 and 2025.  If I take just an average of the last three years from David, that balloons his value to $21.47M.  Let’s use those values as the guardrails as we move forward trying to find a trade package for Bednar.

JV- I know fans likely want to go right to the dessert, but there’s still some meat and potatoes on the plate here. And guys, I know people are going to claim this is just a click bait piece, but like it or not we will see David Bednar’s name come up at the Winter Meetings. His name popped up at the Trade Deadline, but when the smoke cleared The Renegade still called  PNC Park his home. 

Does a $4.7 million price tag change the situation? Let’s quash that crap right here and right now. If Nutting gives General Manager Ben Cherington a thumbs up on moving Bednar, it WILL NOT be due to a $4.7 million dollar pay stub. Is Nutting cheap? Absolutely. But $4.7M just isn’t going to scare him. 

I don’t see GMBC moving Bednar all things considered, but is it possible that the Buccos get an offer they can’t refuse?  

CS – As we have done with every Bednar related piece, we must mention that moving the beloved, big, Yinzer is very unlikely. But we must consider the possibility given that he is a good trade piece. We are not endorsing this type of move. Our aim is to try to make sense of his value on the trade market and then to reason out the who, what, why, etc…

My own personal take on a Bednar move is that it is doable. It would be possible to be “buyers” and trade Bednar. The fine details would require a masterclass from the front office. Such a trade would place a premium on the return being one of two things: undeniable prospect talent, regardless of age/level or MLB ready, young-ish talent. 

JV- I, too, am of the opinion that this is a deal that could be doable. But “doable’” and getting it done, well that’s a different story altogether.

Ok guys, I think we’ve stalled enough. Joe, I know it has been a while but this is like riding a bike. Sometimes you just gotta get back on the seat and start pedaling. Cause you’re up first my, dude!

JB – Team: Atlanta Braves

SP AJ Smith-Shawver OR Hurston Waldrep – 50 FV – $21M – 2024

3B Ignacio Alvarez – 40+ FV – $4M – 2025

My deal is with Atlanta, a team knocking on the door and ready to make a splash.  The thing that I needed in a deal for Bednar was a headliner that was ready to contribute in 2024, and Atlanta had options.  I’ve got a bit of a cop out with the headliner as the Braves have two guys that meet the criteria for this deal.  I’d push for Smith-Shawver as he fits the profile that I prefer, from Longenhagen, as a “a big frame (6-foot-3, 205 pounds), present arm strength, and a loose, efficient arm action that portended secondary pitch development. Things have gone swimmingly so far, as Smith-Shawver has already begun to throw harder (he’s now parked at 93-96 mph for whole outings and reaching back for more when he wants), and his slider has morphed from a crude, velo-dependent weapon into a nasty, more polished two-plane pitch that he is commanding with exciting consistency early in 2023.” But if you prefer a player that “does most of his damage with his upper-80s screwball-style changeup. It’s a devastating, airbender-esque pitch” then Waldrep is your guy.

Alvarez adds a piece that allows Pittsburgh to replenish the coffers for the future, as well.  Back to Longenhagen, “He’s a Yandy Díaz starter kit: Of such muscular build that he is at risk of sliding to third base if he continues to thicken, he has great feel for the strike zone and promising bat-to-ball skills, but his swing is not at all optimized for power and will likely dilute his in-game production if it doesn’t change.”

CS- Team: Philadelphia Phillies

The Phils have now had two consecutive seasons where they “peaked” with almost perfect timing. Absolute masterclass is player preparation and coaching, in my opinion. In the sports performance world “peaking” the majority of a team at the appropriate time is incredibly difficult. I cannot stress enough how impressive what Philly has done for two seasons back to back has been to watch.

With that being said, they could still use a lockdown back of the bullpen arm. One of the all-time great closers, Craig Kimbrel, is headed for free agency and the team seems reluctant to let Jose Alvarado move into the closer role full time. Alvarado was dominant in 2023 and did close out 10 games when called upon. It is a possibility that they make the decision to hand the reins to Alvarado & simply trust the arm talent. Late season call up Orion Kerkering is also a name to watch as ready-made late game arms too. I could see the Phils go “by committee” and use a RHP/LHP split with these two.

For the purposes of this piece, let’s say that Philadelphia trains their sights on The Renegade and try to game out what that might look like.

The Deal –

Phillies Get: David Bednar, CL

Pirates Get: Griff McGarry P – $4 – 45 FV – 2024

                     Aidan Miller SS – $6 – 45 FV – 2027

This marks the second straight season where I try to manifest the Pirates acquiring Griff McGarry. Looking at his 2023 performance, you the reader might think that I am some combination of moron, fool, or clown. Perhaps all three. McGarry was good at AA, but pretty gross at AAA. However – he has absolutely nuclear level stuff. If McGarry could improve the control and harness the arsenal it is a top of the rotation profile. Even if he does not make those kinds of improvements on his control, he has the type of ability to be a lights out back end of the bullpen option. McGarry is the type of talent that I am almost always in favor of bringing in.

The second piece is the big SS/3B, Aidan Miller. Miller was a 2023 1st round selection who boasts big time raw power & a developing hit tool. The hit tool could always be a lagging part of the player profile, but the power, bat speed, & hands are all there in spades. Miller would  be a desirable piece for any organization to get their hands on.

Philadelphia might balk at the price of adding Miller, but I really do not have a feel for where they are on McGarry. His range of outcomes is wide and the odds of him being a “miss” due to command issues are quite high. Should he be a “hit” though, it would have potential to be a BIG “hit.”

I am sort of breaking my own rule with this proposal, I know. At the beginning it was mentioned that this deal would need to see “win-now” returns and what I have presented is a lot more theoretical than immediate. My retort to this would be that I am a believer in McGarry’s pure stuff & the profile of Miller to eventually be a difference maker to pull the trigger on something like this.

JV-  Putting together a Bednar deal is not an easy task in the offseason. There are so many GM’s that think they can buy a ring. Due to that, there will certainly be teams connected to a David Bednar that we don’t think need him. It’s part of the fun of the Winter Meetings. 

Not sure the team that  I’m using here qualifies for that, but I doubt  that people would consider that the  World Series Champions would be in the market for a closer.  And why not? They will be losing some of their BP arms and they have a young deep roster that should be a problem for the AL contenders for years to come. My team, the Texas Rangers. 

The Deal-

Rangers get-

David Bednar ($41.75M)

Nick Gonzales-MLB/AAA 2B/SS/3B SV?

Nick still has the quick hands, but it’s starting to look like he’s the odd man out for the Buccos. His SV is hard to gauge and likely higher than we think due to the control that comes attached to him, and it gives the Rangers a back up plan at 2B.

Pirates get-

Justin Foscue-2B/3B/1B-ETA:2024-FV 50($28M)

The Rangers have to make room on the 40 man roster for Justin  by November 14th, the cut off to be protected from the Rule5 draft. The thing with Foscue is the Rangers have 2B and 1B covered with Nathan Lowe and Marcus Simien. They also have Ezequile Duran, so moving Foscue here could make sense.

He’s gotten bigger so 1B looks to be the spot, but his ability to play 2B could also be attractive should Peggy struggle.  What does Justin bring? 

Per Fangraphs,

“He has a 94% in zone contact rate” 

The kid can hit. 

Dustin Harris-OF/1B- ETA:2024- FV 40+($4M)

Harris is another position flexible guy that could fit what the Bucs need, maybe more so due to being an OF as well as a 1B. Like Foscue, he’s 24 so the time is now for a push to the majors. However, unlike Foscue, he’s currently on the Rangers 40 man. His power plays, though the exit velos were down in 23, something that could scare the Bucs FO off. 

Owen White-SP-MLB- FV 45($4M)

Owen is still just 24 and already debuted. There’s a ‘but’ here though. BUT, he’s coming off a subpar season. His velo is down. His debut wasn’t good and his AAA numbers weren’t all that encouraging. 

So why’d I include him? You keep adding pitching until the pitching pans out. TINSTAAPP goes both ways. 

If you’re returning to these pages, you might recall  that I’ve used all three of these names before. So sue me. If GMBC is to move Bednar the package would need to address holes for the 2024 season. This package gives the Bucs two options to split time at 1B with Endy Rodriguez and keep either bat in the lineup while Henry Davis  slides behind the plate. It adds an interesting arm to the system that could use a change of scenery. 

Conclusion:

JB – If GMBC can get value near Jud’s package, it’s hard to say no.  I believe that Bednar is more valuable to Pittsburgh than he is as a trade piece, at least at this stage.  I truly believe that the Pirates MUST turn the corner in the next 2 years and I’m not sure the pieces Bednar brings back are more valuable than having the Yinzer handling high leverage situations in a potential push for playoffs.  That means that a deal has to be so clearly a win from the Pirates perspective for them to consider moving Bednar.  I think we can rest easy that he won’t move. 

JV- Even my package has its flaws. Owen White, while worth a gamble, took a step back and the velo drop is a red flag. Dustin Harris did lose some exit velo on average and that’s not what I’d call ideal. I can see the Bucs not loving the return despite filling gaps on the roster.

I think the common threads in all 3 deals are MLB ready prospects and that fill the gaps in the lineup while still landing that perceived surplus. Easy enough for us to have fun with, but in the real world? It’s not gonna be that easy. 

CS – As Joe noted very eloquently above; Bednar simply has greater value in Pittsburgh than in almost any other organization. While it is not something that can be measured in a tangible sense, I fully believe it to be true. Both Jud & Joe’s proposals encapsulate this well. The trade that I set forth is slightly more based on a transaction without anything beyond performance value added in. 

JV- As Corey said at the beginning, by writing these we aren’t advocating to trade Bednar. We’re just taking a look at the kind of return that could get the job done. 

This is well worth keeping in mind for the next installment when we take a peek at the viability of moving Mithc Keller. Not too long ago Joe took a shot at putting together what an extension for Bryan Reynolds could look like in one of these traded pieces. Perhaps we can kick off  next week’s piece on moving Keller with  Joe taking a look at that? I really think that would be best for the team, but until the Bucs get an extension done, we will hear his name pop up at the Winter Meetings.

Jack Suwinski Might be Farther Along Than We Think

11-1-23 – By Gary Morgan – @garymo2007 on X

Something that happens when a team makes a major move toward youth quite often is a feeling of dread that, holy hell, if this is “all the talent” we’ve acquired, we’re screwed. The thought here being they aren’t that good, and it’s hard to see them getting better.

You have some people like me out here telling you about short sample sizes and the dangers of placing too much value in them. Some “expert” talent evaluators out there dismiss that type of thing immediately, they only need 15-20 at bats to fully diagnose how a player is trending. AKA, What they are.

Just in this World Series we’ve watched players like Adolis Garcia who’s been DFA’d twice and finally caught on with Texas in 2021 at 28 years old. Total star right? Late bloomer, of course. Look at his stats.

Adolis Garcia

PA2BHRBAOPSBBK
20216222631.243.74132194
20226573427.250.75640183
20236322939.245.83665175

First thing you notice?

Homeruns of course, but look at those K’s. What would you be saying? Pretty consistent right? Probably strikes out a bit too much, doesn’t really look like that’s going away either. Big uptick this year was almost entirely from a dramatic decrease in his swing and miss rate on pitches outside the zone.

Just for craps and giggles, let’s see something.

PA2BHRBAOPSBBK
20223721119.202.70941114
20235342126.224.79375172

That my friends is 25 year old Jack Suwinski.

Where these two go from here is really not the point, as much as to say numbers like this trending in the right direction at 25 years old, should probably fill us with a bit more optimism than the stalled project who disappointed us in 2023 feeling I seem to read and hear proportionally speaking.

I’m not saying these are the same players, not by any stretch, I’m simply saying at 30 years old, Garcia could probably do this for another 2-3 years before starting to decline, at 25, Jack should be on the upswing for a minute yet.

I can tell you internally, that’s how Jack is seen. Not that they know what his top of the mountain looks like quite yet, but believe me, they’re going to give him every opportunity to keep climbing, and more importantly, they EXPECT him to.

I guess what I’m saying here is, back in 2021 while the Rangers were losing 102 games and Adolis Garcia, a waiver claim 28 year old, twice DFA’d, never was, is in the process of belting 31 dingers and striking out almost 200 times, what were their fans thinking? Think they assumed he’d play like a World Series MVP in 2 years? Flash in the pan?

I don’t know, I’m not there, but I can tell you Jack Suwinski probably is on a better trajectory than most of us have given him credit for. Maybe we should also look differently at a guy like Joshua Palacios.

Most of us, and by us in this instance I’m referring to we who write, talk, analyze this team almost accepted Joshua Palacios as an ok option for 2023 but we plugged our nose to do it.

None of us loved the idea of a minor league rule 5 selection who was 28 years old coming up here and carving a meaningful role, and even once we accepted that he was probably the best option in 2023, next to none of us wanted to give him a spot next year.

It just doesn’t work out often. You’ve probably caught the same “tude” about Miguel Andujar. Difference being he has had more of an MLB shot than the others we’re comparing, and his rookie success to this day remains alluring.

Nick Gonzales is a guy who I think has been almost kicked off the team by some fans already. 128 plate appearances in MLB. Played legit good defense at a couple positions, wasn’t impressive at the plate, for sure looked overmatched in more than a few at bats.

But…

It’s not like there are no signs of life. It’s also not like he’s blocked by Ryne Sandberg here people.

As much as probability plays into baseball, you still have to play the games, and as this team tries to put together a winning roster, maybe we all need to take a step back and realize that perhaps a little humility is needed to see that we all miss “special” coming from time to time, regardless of how closely we watch it.

Luis Ortiz, Quinn Priester, Roansy Contreras, Liover Peguero, Henry Davis, Endy Rodriguez, Oneil Cruz, all of these are examples of players who could take that big jump, and when one does it’ll feel like it came out of nowhere. Some of course won’t progress, that’s the far more often outcome for sure, but regardless of what this team adds in the offseason, really turning this thing around is going to come from this group of players who’ve already gotten a taste.

Possible Implications For The Pirates

https://www.podbean.com/media/share/pb-3fzn6-14e7aa4

Craig and Chris sat down to talk about the Pirates Fans visceral reaction to Austin Hedges being in the World Series, how the Pirates can emulate the Arizona Diamondbacks and some off-season tricks and/or treats that Ben Cherington could bring to the Pirates. However, they went completely off the rails and talked about how rule changes have made the game better or worse, new rules that are heading down the pike and how these could effect the Pirates. 

Brought to you by ShopYinzz.com! Craig Toth covers the Pirates for Inside The Bucs Basement, and joins his buddy Chris at a 9-foot homemade oak bar to talk Pittsburgh Pirates Baseball. Listen. Subscribe. Share. We are “For Fans, By Fans & All Pirates Talk.” THE Pirates Fan Podcast found EVERYWHERE podcasts can be found and always at BucsInTheBasement.com!

Five Pirates Thoughts at Five – Preparing for the Off Season

10-30-23 – By Gary Morgan – @garymo2007 on X

This is probably the last week before some of our questions start getting answered. It’ll start out slow with easy ones like declining the option on Jarlin Garcia and quickly move on to purging the 40-man to fit back in the 60-day IL guys and on to the non-tender deadline from there. Teams change a lot over the off season but for the first time in almost a decade we should be looking at a roster we think can be in the conversation all year long.

1. Top Prospects Largely Pitchers

If you look at the way the Pirates roster finished up in 2023, it’s easy to see that pitching, especially starting pitching is a problem.

So it should be seen as good news that 12 of the Pirates current top 15 prospects (MLB Pipeline) are pitchers. This doesn’t even include pitchers who haven’t quite locked themselves in on an MLB job like Quinn Priester, Luis Ortiz, Roansy Contreras.

Of this group there are 3 or 4 who have a legitimate chance to reach and impact MLB in 2024.

I love the depth, they certainly need it. They’ll still need to add from the outside for tested help, we all know that, but this backing is important.

It could also be important because everyone wants pitching, and top prospects. When you have lots of both, you have what you need to really go shopping on the trade market.

One thing I’d like to really help people with is this eventuality. The Pirates will absolutely wind up moving someone from this list for help and it’s going to really make some of you ask, well, what the hell did we work so hard and suffer so long to get all these kids for?

I’m going to use someone I personally have fallen in love with as a prospect, because when I say “you” will have to deal with this, when and if the Pirates trade Jared Jones for help, I will have to talk myself down.

Jones is close to ready, arguably was last year. That said, Jones isn’t likely to be an impact starting pitcher in this league when he is first called up. He could, but it’s not likely. It’s far more likely he is serviceable, even spectacular at times, but more than anything, a visibly young pitcher with things to learn. So if you trade a guy like him at this stage, you’re trading a guy you really think will grow into the gig, for a guy you hope has already done that heavy lifting and are ready to jump right in now with no training wheels.

If you in return get a guy who helps get this team into the Wild Card or better, you’ll still be miffed to see Jones killing it for whatever team you sent him to in 2027, but at the same time, you have to have what you need when you need it.

I don’t want Jones traded, that’s not what this is about, I’m just saying regardless of how much you personally believe in a prospect, there are very few you should expect to jump in and look the part like a playoff team needs them to. If you can move someone like Bubba Chandler with an MLB ETA of 2025 or 2026 and bring back someone who gives you 20 wins over 2 years in a starting role in 2024 and 2025, it’s probably a good move, even if Bubba looks like the fish that got away in 2027.

It hurts but it’s an undying truth in MLB. 99% of the time you have to give to get and you’re usually playing with the timeline as opposed to the belief you’re moving duds for studs.

2. Solving First Base

I’ve combed through all the known free agent first baseman. I’ve looked at all the guys who could be available via trade, even the stretches. Here’s what I’ve come to at First base, there are 4 answers I see that make some level of sense. I’m factoring in things like Rhys Hoskins and the Phillies seemingly being in lockstep that he’s returning.

First, they could address it internally. This would require either moving a prospect, or throwing your hands up and saying Jared Triolo and Conner Joe are enough. I’m not a fan of this, if only because I think they’ll need Triolo to cover other spots and there is no natural platoon here.

Next, they could acquire a first baseman via trade. The only one I’m really interested in with some years of control is Seth Brown but I can’t promise it’s a great move. I like some indicators that he could be better than he’s been, but it’s no guarantee and at this stage they really should be looking for that or just go with option A.

The other two options are on the free agent board. Carlos Santana is already buzzing because of comments he made, and I could certainly see it. He would play and provide time for Joe and Triolo to still get time. That said, it would be a short term solution and assuming he’ll play as well year over year at his age is a poor bet.

Lastly and my favorite option, go sign Jeimer Candelario for 3 years at 21 million for an AAV of 7 million. Jeimer has played a bunch more 3rd base, but in 2023 he logged 21 games there for the Cubs in a pennant race. He’s a switch hitter who last year in 505 at bats hit 22 homeruns with a .251 BA and an .807 OPS. He’ll be 30 years old in 2024 so a 3 year deal wouldn’t be insane. All around solid baseball player who can help even off the bench affordably should another solution take over 1B. I really think this could be a sneaky good acquisition. I’d go higher than this to get it done, but I’d start here and feel it was a fair offer.

3. Off Season Training

I’ve seen some criticism that Pirates players are seeking outside help to develop their games. Last year we had Keller, Hayes notably but hardly alone in reaching outside the org and early on we’ve already seen Joshua Palacios and Henry Davis at Drive Line working on their swings.

This isn’t just a Pirates thing folks, these organizations exist because there is demand, and even for those who don’t go that route, just about everyone has at the very least a retired veteran or two they train with.

This isn’t about players slipping away from the team, in fact many including the Pirates encourage it, but the narrative almost always bounces back to incompetence.

They’re all checking back in too, it’s not like they go off and learn to hit everything at some certain launch angle and Haines starts changing them back in Spring. I don’t like this hitting instruction setup the Pirates employ either, but none of this is weird, nor does it say anything in particular about the Pirates development system.

When a player eventually “gets it” their story will always be a mosaic of reasons, people, methods and experiences that get the credit. I actually talked to one player who told me he was watching his nephew in a batting cage and remembered all the way back to his own youth playing days with the uncomfortable locked elbow position everyone was taught getting started and he massaged it back into his stance and it changed everything about his bat plane and timing.

Nothing is off the table, and it’s for the simple fact that nobody knows for sure what’ll help anyone. Adjustments of fractions of seconds or millimeters in arm slot on a follow through can take a guy from bust to boom. If a coaching staff were to be so proud as to claim they had all the answers, well, they wouldn’t be a coaching staff for long.

4. Baseball’s Boss Wants Starting Pitching to Star Again

Rob Manfred talked about how baseball has started to wonder about how pitching has been trending in the game and made some comments to a small gaggle of reporters after game 1 of the World Series.

“Historically, starting pitchers have been some of the biggest stars in the game, and the way that pitching is being used right now has caused a diminution of the star quality for some of our starters, I think that there’s a lot of fans who feel like the change from ‘Let’s see what today’s pitching matchup is’ to ‘Who’s the opener today?’ has not been positive.”

His suggestion was to potentially toy with the number of pitchers a team can carry, with 12 being the obvious next choice. Obviously just a thought but something they could take up next year with the rules committee.

Now, this doesn’t seem to fit super well with the recent revelations that 35% of all MLB pitchers have had or are currently recovering from UCL, AKA Tommy John procedures although changing the way they have used starting pitchers certainly hasn’t slowed that number it would seem asking more from less wouldn’t be well received by the union or the globs of statisticians filling every managers head with tales of 3rd time through the order horror stories.

I appreciate the acknowledgement that fans aren’t enjoying this aspect of the game the way they used to, I just don’t know if there’s really a way to fix it. If it were truly about babying arms, I suppose I could just say cut it out it ain’t helping, but reality is the numbers very much so say that the 3rd time through an order, even for the best of the best, there is a huge jump in the offensive production. That’s not changing, and because pitchers aren’t often being asked to try it, most of them will never learn the art of slowly showing your arsenal.

No, it’s much more likely to me we’ll slowly evolve what defines “Star Starting Pitcher”. If you grew up watching Don Drysdale, Nolan Ryan, John Smoltz types, good luck, you’ll never ever count the 5-6 inning guys in that class.

Worth discussing, I’m just not sure like “banning the shift” you can legislate these particular analytics out of the game, even if it would be better for at least the star quality of the position. In fact, I’m not really sure how much that helped, but it sure looked less dumb to me while watching a game.

I really try to change with the game, but I’ll never be able to swallow seeing a 40 foot hole on one side of the infield and not see the hitter slap balls over there, and I’ll likely never consider a starter who goes 5 or 6 innings on average “great”. It certainly hasn’t made me think you don’t need starters you want to see every fifth day either.

One last contradiction here, you can’t make a bunch of changes to try to boost offense like this league just did and then expect pitchers to do something they already weren’t doing under better conditions.

5. It’s Gonna Take a Star

If there’s one thing you should take from watching the playoffs this year it’s that you probably don’t need 5 All Star Starters, but beyond that, it should be clear you need some star hitters.

And I mean like the whole league sits up and takes notice stars.

This team needs to add from the outside, but lets be real, if they have the star power they’ll need to win, it’s going to have to come from inside. Oneil Cruz needs to take a jump from super interesting, super high ceiling prospect to full blown fear inducing figure. Or Jack Suwinski has to find consistency and prove that 40 homerun power can manifest itself all in one season and not be surrounded by 150 Ks.

Henry Davis needs to follow his less than inspiring rookie campaign with something that resembles a difference maker.

Listen, I’m not saying all or any of this is going to happen, I’m just saying if you or anyone else is suggesting this team could possibly go on an Arizona Diamondbacks type run next year, it simply has to.

It won’t be enough for Bryan Reynolds to have a great year, because he’s expected to perform and his gap from “average” to “really strong” isn’t all that wide.

No, the Pirates need to get it from one of these kids going on a tear, really emerging.

Even then, Ke’Bryan’s evolution needs to be permanent. Endy needs to hit much closer to how he hit in 2022. Keller needs to be a Cy Young finalist.

It sounds like I’m exaggerating I’m sure but while I’m happy about the progress this team made in 2023, and see it trending upward next year, I think many are really missing how much of this exact type of thing went right for Arizona this year.

Take Corbin Carroll for example, the likely NL Rookie of the Year in 2023. Well, he got a cup of coffee in 2022, 32 games, 115 plate appearances, and he hit .260 with 4 homeruns. Positive for sure, bright future for sure, but would you as a fan have headed into 2023 thinking he would play 155 games, hit 25 homeruns, steal 54 bases, hit .285 with an .868 OPS?

I look at someone like Nick Gonzales who had a similar sized cup of coffee 128 plate appearances this year, he’s at .209, 2 homers, nothing spectacular, certainly not enough to have him deemed the automatic odd man out.

Point is, if a guy like Carroll can take a big jump, it could happen here too, and more importantly, it’s a must.

To be clear, I think this team can be a Wild Card team in 2024 just through average growth expectations and additions to the roster, but going on a run, I simply can’t get there without something or someone more accurately turning into a butterfly.

Minor League News And Brews: The Pirates Rule 5 Protection Plan

https://www.podbean.com/media/share/pb-5vv9m-14e24af

Craig talks about the history and rules surrounding both the Major and Minor League Phases Of The Rule 5 Draft, gets a little off topic discussing a potential acquisition circulating around Pirates Fan Social Media and wraps up the show by working his way through the players Ben Cherington could protect this year. 

Craig Toth covers the Pirates for Inside The Bucs Basement, and is a huge Pittsburgh Pirates Baseball Fan; especially when it comes to the Farm System. Listen. Subscribe. Share. We are “For Fans, By Fans & All Pirates Talk.” THE Pirates Fan Minor League Podcast found EVERYWHERE podcasts can be found and always at BucsInTheBasement.com!

The Pirates Off-Season Outlook With Jason Mackey

https://www.podbean.com/media/share/pb-4v548-14db4ac

Craig sits down with Jason Mackey, Pirates Beat Reporter from the Post-Gazette, to talk about getting the roster down to 40, some tough arbitration decisions, re-signing Cutch and maybe Santana, the choice to put Henry back behind the plate and the team’s most pressing needs that have to be addressed during the off-season.  

Brought to you by ShopYinzz.com! Craig Toth covers the Pirates for Inside The Bucs Basement, and joins his buddy Chris at a 9-foot homemade oak bar to talk Pittsburgh Pirates Baseball. Listen. Subscribe. Share. We are “For Fans, By Fans & All Pirates Talk.” THE Pirates Fan Podcast found EVERYWHERE podcasts can be found and always at BucsInTheBasement.com!

Five Pirates Thoughts at Five – The Series Approaches

10-23-23 – By Gary Morgan – @garymo2007 on Twitter

The playoffs are nearing conclusion and we’ll soon know the World Series combatants. Will it be the Phillies and Astros in a rematch, or will the Upstart Diamondbacks chin up to the defending NL Champs? Maybe those Rangers want their share of the Lone Star State’s baseball pride. One thing’s for sure, all of this has my head spinning thinking about the off season, and what a big one it is for this franchise.

1. Did Endy’s Offensive Numbers Leave a Crack for Henry?

It’s clear that Endy Rodriguez was ahead of Henry Davis defensively in 2023. Take the pile of reasons including the perception that the Pirates made it so with poor choices and toss them out the window.

None of the reasons matter, just the result, Endy is a developed catcher who still has room to grow, Henry has room to grow, but has also barely started developing.

We know the Pirates have at least under Ben Cherington, prioritized the defensive capability of their backstops.

All of this leads you to the “inevitable” conclusion that Endy is the starting catcher when we get to February and this Henry catching stuff is a waste of time.

That said, are we just assuming Endy is eventually going to hit like he did in the minors? I say this because he certainly didn’t hit in the Bigs. I mean, better than Austin Hedges, but if Henry is given a real shot back there and he’s even passible, can he take the spot?

I’ll say this, the Pirates are at least open to it. One thing I’m hearing repeatedly is the overriding thought that roles won in 2023 shouldn’t be assumed filled for 2024.

2. JT Brubaker Ahead of Schedule?

Talking with Michael McKenry last week he told me JT was already throwing off flat ground a month ago, which would put him ahead of the schedule we traditionally see in these types of recoveries.

Brubaker is one of the tougher decisions the Pirates will face on the non-tender deadline. He’s due for arbitration and should get somewhere from 2-2.5 million. If his recovery progresses like this it’s not insane to think he could make it back sometime in July or Early August.

Might be a nice punch in the arm right around when a team like this would hopefully be looking to bolster their staff. Something as small as being slightly ahead of schedule could swing this decision into keep territory.

You may think Brubaker isn’t good enough to be one of their 5 starters, and you may very well end up being right, but for a team that never spends what you want, 2 million for what could be a nice, experienced option might just be important.

3. Don’t Be Shocked if the Pirates Bring in More Players Than You Expect

We all keep the holes on this roster at top of mind when we discuss this offseason. Over and over again they are repeated. 2 starters and a first baseman we say, to anyone who’ll listen. We say them at the beginning of every conversation just to make sure who we’re talking to know we’re qualified to speculate.

That doesn’t make them any less true, but it’s also started in my mind to prevent any of us from going any farther. We name those things, nod at each other and almost non-verbally acknowledge that this is enough to ask for and we just back off. Yelling Oh, and Cutch too! almost in the distance as we’ve ended the conversation a while ago.

I remember feeling this same way last offseason. I thought they’d get a starter, a bullpen arm, a first baseman, someone to catch, but I didn’t expect much more. But they did get more. You don’t have to think they were all good moves, but they weren’t bare minimum.

I think the Bucs might just go out and bring in more competition even in places we aren’t seeing an opening. For instance, they have plenty of options who can play the outfield, but only two who you’d consider everyday players. Bryan Reynolds and Jack Suwinski are that bar, below that you have Bae, Palacios, Joe, Davis and whomever else you want to name. Well, maybe they fill this hole with someone from outside.

Meaning, maybe 2024 is less about ensuring kids get playing time and instead making sure they have MLB quality depth everywhere. The 40-man would be 37 players you could count on to give you MLB results. It could mean instead of letting one of the middle infielders win 2B in Spring, they bring in someone for them to beat beside each other.

Look, we’ve been writing and talking about getting these prospects on boarded for 4 years. It’s been our entire focus, every move had to be made with that in mind. To a degree, it still comes into play of course, but this is a method many teams will employ. You must have depth and quality depth to win, so you either stock up on Quad A players from other teams or you build up the top end forcing some of your own prospects back a bit.

I don’t know if that’s the direction they’ll go, maybe not, but I keep going back to the GM saying they want to reach the playoffs. I’m not sure the “expected” is enough to get that done. Maybe it is, maybe they patch the obvious holes and the kids evolve and next thing you know, boom playoffs. Or, maybe, you fill some holes a bit less front facing, force the depth down and let the cream rise to the top.

Food for thought.

4. Rule 5 Protections

The Pirates could protect or leave exposed any number of players this year. Before I start worrying about whom the Pirates may have to send on their way in exchange, or non-tender, even before I wonder how much room to leave for free agents, it always makes more sense to first understand how many players you could see getting claimed.

Sometimes you roll the dice like last year with Blake Sabol, and you lose. He had a fine first year for the Giants, and time will tell how badly this will hurt. A fresh lesson always hurts worse than the collective of history though, and overall, as much time as we spend on this year after year, it so hardly matters, and yet, that’s largely because teams don’t often mess this up.

Here’s who I see as the best bets to be protected.

Braxton Ashcraft, Tsung-Che Cheng, and Jase Bowen. Again, there are a ton of guys depending on what you think you see the Pirates being concerned with, but if I’m using Blake Sabol as a barometer, it’s hard for me to see them sweating Malcom Nunez, or Gorski.

It’s early yet, maybe after thinking on this a bit more I’ll talk myself into something else. In fact even of the 3 I mentioned, Cheng is the only one I’d call a lock and Tsung-Che himself didn’t do many favors after his promotion to Altoona. It’s hard to watch him play and come away from it feeling like there isn’t something special there. Ashcraft was much the same, and the only reason to leave him unprotected is how little he’s actually pitched.

If you’ve learned anything from their choices on this front these past few years, it should be unless they see the player capable of MLB innings they tend to just leave it be. Liover Peguero is the last one I remember them reaching for a bit, but they had plenty of room and they knew the decision was coming when they acquired him. That’s just not the case right now with anyone else in my mind. If Jared Jones was eligible, he’d be a for sure protection, but they should feel no pressure to get that done right now.

5. Fan Bases are Built on Season Ticket Holders…

It’s true, a thriving franchise has a strong base of season ticket holders. They’ll for the most part loyally ride along with you through the ups and downs. Every year there are defectors, some just can’t handle another rebuilding cycle. Some couldn’t deal with that one guy getting dealt, heck, some are just mad beer costs too much. Most years, in most places those are replaced by others for myriad reasons.

The best way to add to that is to win of course, but not just that, to really build this STH base, they’re going to have to prove to fans they won’t need to reach the same depths next time the window closes on a block of veterans. Fans will take a couple years gearing back up, but the bottoming out is destructive.

Now, don’t get me wrong, they aren’t losing some idiot like me regardless, but if you want families back, or friend groups, or couples who add to the re-up coffers year after year, you have to show that ten year valleys and three year heights aren’t going to be the norm.

That’s the GM Cycle. Come in and you get to attack the problem however you like, or more accurately, you’re able to execute whatever you sold the ownership on. The goal for this one was to burn it down, build it back on fertile ground and hopefully sustain a winning culture.

You know, stuff every GM promises when they come in the door. Some are awfully convincing too. These are things we just aren’t going to know until it’s played out through the decade, and yes, he’ll almost assuredly get that long. That’s part of what I take from allowing some of the longer term contracts, it’s not like Nutting to assume risk that’ll outlive the executive who inked it.

This TV deal is important too. If it’s absorbed by MLB I think we’ll get little more than games on TV. If it’s through NESN the Penguins new carrier I think we can expect much more local programming that we’ve come to expect and probably more. There is fast coming a day when Regional Sports Networks will fully meet their maker, but for now, if the Pirates have a choice and financially it’s similar, I’m pulling for joining the Penguins.

A good performing team with a good TV situation will help grow this base too. This offseason for this organization is huge, in a ton of ways up to and including the club finally investing in the area surrounding the ball park.

Good.

Cause the players shouldn’t be the only subjects of “getting better”.

Minor League News And Brews: Altoona Curve 2023 Recap Show

https://www.podbean.com/media/share/pb-arwj3-14d3b57

Craig is joined by Jon Mozes from the Altoona Curve to discuss how the 2023 season went for the Pirates Double-A Affiliate; including individual player profiles, adjustments that take place when a prospect is promoted from Greensboro to Altoona and some guys to keep an eye on. 

Craig Toth covers the Pirates for Inside The Bucs Basement, and is a huge Pittsburgh Pirates Baseball Fan; especially when it comes to the Farm System. Listen. Subscribe. Share. We are “For Fans, By Fans & All Pirates Talk.” THE Pirates Fan Minor League Podcast found EVERYWHERE podcasts can be found and always at BucsInTheBasement.com!

Dealing With The Pirates Slow News Cycle

https://www.podbean.com/media/share/pb-ppeyy-14d3a7c

Craig and Chris discuss some MLB Headlines that deal with poor ownership, and decisions concerning personnel; which leads us back to a candid conversation about Bob Nutting, Ben Cherington and old friend. 

Brought to you by ShopYinzz.com! Craig Toth covers the Pirates for Inside The Bucs Basement, and joins his buddy Chris at a 9-foot homemade oak bar to talk Pittsburgh Pirates Baseball. Listen. Subscribe. Share. We are “For Fans, By Fans & All Pirates Talk.” THE Pirates Fan Podcast found EVERYWHERE podcasts can be found and always at BucsInTheBasement.com!

It’s Not What You are, It’s What You Become… and When

10-17-23 – By Gary Morgan – @garymo2007 on X

Let’s talk progression shall we?

It’s one of my favorite subjects because as you watch baseball, inevitably that guy who once had potential, then stunk, then kinda looked like he might be getting it, often becomes the player you’re screaming to have extended that only has two years of team control left.

For every Corbin Carroll there are 20 of what I just described, one of them is named Mitch Keller. Hell, some of you still don’t trust him because you’re punishing him for taking so long to mature, or you’ve been hurt in the past by trusting someone was for real.

The Pirates, partially by their own choice, and paired with the disadvantages that MLB’s system creates have to at least to a degree, build their team. You can tell yourself whatever lie you want about revenue sharing, make up whatever numbers you desire, maybe you’ll even be right about some of them, but the only real fact in the financial situation in baseball is that some teams can spend twice as much as others.

That doesn’t excuse ownerships, and yes, I mean that in a plural usage, but it does exist and much of the struggle of building like this, rebuilding, tearing down, tanking, all of it comes straight from this reality.

So, now that my little rant is out of the way and we can move forward. A building team, flush with young talent must incrementally improve.

From the time you call up a prospect, the clock starts ticking. 6 or 7 years is what you get until you extend a player. Extending players, and even paying good players in year 6 and 7 gets costly.

When a guy like Mitch comes up and struggles for a year, hey, cool you get 4 or 5 years of a really good player who helps your team. When it takes 2 or 3 years to reach “good” well, you’re already pushed headfirst into decision time.

That’s why it’s so important to negotiate with Mitch on an extension this offseason, because he’s only got 2 left, and if the team doesn’t lock him up, they’ll wind up having worked hard for 4 full seasons and maybe get him to pitch in a Wild Card Series as a reward. Frankly, that’s not enough.

In fact, time travel with me. What if Mitch was just coming up in 2024? Could the Pirates afford to be as patient? Could they really give him 4 seasons to become this dude we can’t let slip through our fingers?

The answer to that question is exactly why a team like this instead chooses to sell off and tear down. You can’t try to win and on board 10-15 rookies at the same time, well, you can, but you can’t expect great results.

Even the youth laden Orioles have a crop of guys who’ve been around for 5-6 years.

Next year for the Pirates, Bryan Reynolds, Ke’Bryan Hayes, Mitch Keller, David Bednar, they’ll all be counted upon pieces. Pieces surrounded by countless youngsters who they’ve taken the advantage of low expectations to on board over the past couple seasons.

Again, the hope is that your players progress quickly. There is never a good time for that 3-4 year maturing cycle, but the reason you have a season like 2023 in which you call up a roster full of rookies is to start the progression together as a unit.

The hope of course is you find some that get there quickly, add to it and catch a break with an early run. The expectation is, you grow them, add others along the way and by the 3rd or 4th year of their MLB experience you’re ready to rock.

That’s part of why this is so hard. A rather large part actually.

Timing is everything. If you call guys up in a big group, well, you better at least turn half of them into serviceable. If you call up top picks, some of them need to become stars. If you extend players, you best choose the right ones.

I can tell you right now, in 2030 this entire batch will be through team control if not acted upon. Sounds like forever away, I know, but come 2028 we’ll be actively wondering which ones will be traded, which ones will be extended and some of them, well, we probably will have forgotten their names until some Twitter handle brings them up in a trivia question.

The reason I’ve been able to stay reserved as we’ve watched all this awful baseball is because it was all building up to where we are now. And the reason I won’t lose my mind when someone I really like is moved, is because honestly, I know right now sitting here it’ll happen. Because it simply must.

For some of you this is part of a never ending cycle you just can’t deal with. I get it, I really do, but I implore you to try to just enjoy what you are very much so going to get, even if this management team shows to be incompetent, a good run of winning baseball.

To me, that much is clear, we’re on the verge of winning more than we lose. We’re on the cusp of watching young players become better, and ultimately some of them will become indispensable to the cause.

You don’t have to enjoy the entire journey, those of you who’ve read my stuff from the beginning know, I know I’m weird, but at least allow yourself to enjoy what you suffered for.